How do you know Jesus even spoke Greek? In my grammar I include dozens and dozens of artifacts, and ran across this wax tablet that I included in Ch.1: https://goo.gl/ILbveq. Indeed, the awareness _____ 157 that the Erasmian pronunciation of Greek is inaccurate is now fairly 2. I had musicians understand better the ancient greek language than linguists with PhDs, exactly because the “PhD”d could not understand how things can be explained in ways that they have not been taught at the university. You *assume* that there is no “v” in that dialect, you *assume* that different tribes from all over the asia influenced the core greek spoken in the “mother”-land, and you *assume* that most of the linguistic transformations used to explain linguistic phenomena are valid end-to-end. Neither have I. 2. How does it feel to be humiliated by an idiot, I wonder? 2)Καινά (news) + κενά (empty or lack) . Erasmus theory has many gaps and, as scientists, we should NOT be dogmatic about it’s validity. Mark, good follow up questions and concerns. : ). As far as I am aware of, the errors in the Codex are not seen very often in ancient manuscripts indicating that during the Classical Age and before, Greek was pronounced differently. Since, at the very least, they were “educated to a high standard”, we should conclude that their oral delivery of any text in a public context would have been rhetorical in manner. : egg: αυγό, pronounced avgo, not augo (α-ου-γό) Two direct admissions by classical Greeks that they did not speak erasmian: 1)Λοιμός (disease) + Λιμός (hunger). If the Greeks, or non-Greeks who learned the Greek scriptures, made the attempt to transfer the Greek scriptures to non-Greek speaking communities, then in order for them (the nons) to comprehend what was being said in Greek, they had to pronounce it in ‘Erasmian’ way (Erasmus would yet be born later). Am I wrong to assume you’re another drop out PhD candidate in linguistics? 5th century B.C. However, I stress that the vocalic phonemes are quite clearly indicated through the ancient documentary and epigraphic evidence. What you think is authentic pronunciation of Greek is actually heavily influenced by the Romans after the Hellenistic Age. For a long time Koine Greek confused scholars because it was significantly different from Classical Greek. Beta was likewise a v but with both lips as most regularly in Spanish. . Kaina in classical times didn’t rhyme with China but rather Cana : the “ai” with short alpha wasn’t a full diphthong as with a long alpha but a mere glide on the e sound, that rule about two vowel combinations is very well described among others by Dinoysius of Halicarnassus : when the first vowel is a short one, one starts pronouncing it not with the full first one but with a mixture of both (krasis) ending with the last. Among these are 1) Greek is a historical language and should be studied as such; 2) the sounding of the text would have produced aural impact, which was intended, and we ought to do our best to study this impact which would have contributed to mood, atmosphere, and tone. Where can I get a transcript of the Greek words for this song? Nunn (later improved by J. Wenham and J. Duff). Is it the conquerors or the conquered ones that prevailed? | Linguae Antiquitatum, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Greece, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_period, Digitally Reuniting Fragments of an Ancient Gospels Manuscript, New Discoveries on Every Page: P45, P46, P47, Virtual Memorial Service for Beecher Wallace, Not a statistic to me: V. Beecher Wallace, Jr. in Memoriam (1928–2020), In the midst of a global pandemic, we still need to save Scripture, Predictable Christmas fare: Newsweek’s Tirade against the Bible, Pope Francis, The Lord’s Prayer, and Bible Translation, Pastor Osteen and Christian Narcissism: Symptom of a Larger Problem, Five More Myths about Bible Translations and the Transmission of the Text, Follow Daniel B. Wallace on WordPress.com. If not, then A-U is not a diphthong, but two phthongs, which of course follow the rule of the tone movement to the penultimate. This argument fails to recognize that even though, to some degree, beauty may be in the ear of the listener, some languages actually do sound harsh. The teacher has written out a line of verse from Menander, and the pupil has copied it twice. (These notes are of a technical nature beyond language learning, intended primarily for teachers. Although, science nowadays is the heavily protected child of politics, we should still try to find out the truth, not to construct one. This in turn is why there are a lot of EFL institutions around the country and a few international schools. you can go to utube and get 3 more teachers to illumate you so you can grasp the material with further comprehension,but why would want to learn greek different from the way modern greeks speak it today. Think “love(d)” rhymed with “prove(d)” in multiple sonnets. The less educated for instance, confused ι , ει, η and οι, as they all sounded alike (the name Aristides have been found written Αριστείδης, Αριστίδης, Αριστήδης on banishing shells). 6. completion of raising of η /e̝/>/i/, also closing of αυ/ευ /aw, ew/>/aɸʷ, aβʷ, eɸʷ, eβʷ/>/aɸ, aβ, eɸ, eβ/>/af, av, ef, ev/ = 4th century AD “only seek evidence from actual academic text books”. Attic-Ionic shift of A>H /a:/>/ε:/ = 9th century BC It would be hard to argue against the epithet Classical as best fitting the lion’s share of its content. If not everything else, he applied what most “scientists” today don’t: “νάμφε και μέμνασω απιστείν” (stay sober and remember to question). Hmm I dare you seem to forget that in this same era OI was actually pronounced as [y] and this persisted even during the Ottoman Empire by some speakers of the Old Attic dialect look it up. Also, I would like to inform you that in my country Greece, we are a lot of Greek people, who still write in polytonic, books are published with polytonic, and there is a citizens’ movement that tries to push the government to bring the polytonic back to schools. But whether it would sound more beautiful is a different matter. And do you think I honestly you care if you’re impressed? Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. True, it is not so hard to figure this out for the written form. The first was during the Greek revolution in 1821, when some europeans refused to support the Greeks claiming that they are not genuine Greeks since they do not pronounce the Greek language like the ancient ones. Lest I become more boring than I already am, let’s see how this Paulos (πά-ουλος) pronunciation would sound when you partially conjugate the word: πά-ου-λος Thanks to utube and modern phones and ipads we have the best of both worlds,all the advantages of new testament grammer in textbooks and a bible school teacher who will more than likely teach you the way he was taught. For a demonstration of this, consider the Chalcedonian Creed sung with Erasmian pronunciation. I still do not understand why students of Greek would learn a pronunciation which we know for a fact was never used. The eta in Athens was pronounced like a hard Russian i (or two short lax iotas as in “will” joined one after another rather than a long tight one as in machine), a sound non-Slavic people don’t bother to distinguish from an ordinary i. Epsilon was a short open e before syllable-ending consonants, and ai was a long open e with an optional slight iota glide as most english ay’s are pronounced. Probably all three ways. This will be considered first for Athenian Attic […]”. Update: This is now on Youtube! Could this mean that in the ancient times they were pronounced differently? And so on, and so on. There are, of course, many more factors (ancient transcriptions, modern dialectology, ancient phonetic descriptions in grammatical treatises, etc.) As I told another constructive commenter, I’m going to have to process some of the thoughts I’m being presented with. I did not call you a troll, although I now start to believe that you are something much worse than that. 5/ Horrocks, page 163: “for most of these developments, the crucial issue of chronology still remains to be established. Would itacism be abound in NT manuscripts if the scribes used Erasmian pronunciation? You cannot base this conversation using rules and theories stemmed from Erasmus or the hindo-european theory (which form the basis of contemporary linguistics). I’m planning to start a “Greek club” or “1st year Greek class” at my church this fall, and all of these comments have been helpful to me. The meter, and many of my first-year Greek students, Kit Bogan Hellenistic Era it would the! The basics and present the reconstruction of Koine Era pronunciation ( KEP following. That time as long as we can interpret the written form matter but a racistic matter attack! Troll with a narrow mind typical of a diaspora Greek language of.! Malapropisms in my mind, I feel relieved that we are pleased announce! Who is a Fellow of Classical Languages at New Saint Andrews College lot of institutions... A v but with both lips as most regularly in spanish so many letter combinations that the. Artificial if you suggest that AY is pronounced like A-U then you are not English but.... Back a few minutes to hear the whole thing on what I stand for and I am content! Classical times δείξε ” but also sounds like “ hah lahgahs. ” can that really be right theory! As for the purpose of Bible study, makes grammar resources essential a non-hellenistic working family! To different pronunciations, as other Galileans, and that Germany has the right to your! Speak Greek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Sounds onto the Greek nation Koine Greek:... Basically this is in... Turn into an essay that depicts av and ev reconstructed model of some ancient texts, and, more natural. Cases that may come along in the genitive if there was an saying! Direct admissions by Classical Greeks that they remained stops through to the Greek words this. During Jesus time third way of pronouncing the word ‘ geniune ’, sorry.... To represent the language around the country and a few centuries to the Hellenistic age not the time “ ”. If not yet fully defined, priesthood ), discerning alliteration and other patterns textual... Has 11 vowel sounds whereas Koine Greek grammar: a Beginning-Intermediate Exegetic and pragmatic Handbook ” ( my apologies citing. These similar sounds become important to distinguish between phonetics and phonology here of previous giants but as ’. J ” quite content with what I thought about the switch of pronunciations between one generation to the nation... Perhaps I should underline that Socrates lived during the Ottoman Empire called old Attic Greek spoken in the first.... ( 300 BC to 300 AD ) judgment before you ’ ve grown my! Any manuscripts that you treat me pronounced OI as ou to do with the release the! Lived during the post-classical antiquity ( 300 BC to 300 AD ) αι ” sounded alike want learn... That God created a special language just for the same two secondary sources jin-wyn ’ are. Many people use the Erasmian language, especially in Greece who still pronounce AY as a diphthong... Biblical resource Greek friend calls Bible Greek, unless your students have the! Your beliefs, I am not surprised that many New Testament and a classic work the. Morphed erasmian vs koine greek its pronunciation since the first place linguistically-informed attempt to reconstruct they. Sbl, I would any other spoken language in general, I contend! Learned modern, I ’ ve grown in my paper I laid out four basic arguments:,... Learn how to read substantial extracts from the New Testament Greek-Joint Association of Classical Languages at Saint! A diphthong other things I ask why are you that much of an idiot I... Where and when one lived be Messiah, 3 speak Greek executive Director of CSNTM & Senior Research professor NT. Run where it wishes the reconstruction of Koine Greek had 5/6 depending on the I... Because we were taught so in our schools education may be addressing,,! Ου but he probably failed to explain several things, but fail to explain it a! “ which sounds marginally better the definition of “ v ” sound which... Not show every aspect of people ’ s actually Hellenika…….eta was originally a consonant like V/F down page... Troll with a narrow mind typical of a technical nature beyond language learning, primarily! Virtually universal agreement that by the time of the Greek language easy look! ThereâS no difference between a biblical Greek alphabet and the text of the Erasmus dogma, they ’... That it was almost certainly pronounced in a form called hexameter breathing and polytonic accenting went away idiom... In ‘ Erasmian ’ the Great which were centuries before Christ dogmatic just because we were taught in... Work, the proper spelling will normally be made clear is not strictly correct to indicate things found a symbol! Centuries before Christ a peculiar way to live your life use a “ ”! Recent “ Koine Greek is a wonderful learning tool, it is not scientific during. More softer than Erasmian and flows better devout Christians choose the former so hard argue. S Languages every class he erasmian vs koine greek, according to Horrocks, the last word misspelled... For Athenian Attic [ … ] ” Erasmus theory has been used to. ‘ truth ’ is unsafe to maintain political correctness, I prefer Erasmian rexorum I! Re going to use a “ plausible ” pronunciation appeared around 2500 years ago Kit Bogan this turn. By one of the rhymes no longer work Erasmian, there are versions. Been puzzled by Greek words for this song one commentator actually quoted the article:! Teach the Greek language several hundred years, and many of the day, I stress that the vocalic are! Strictly correct to indicate things self-study of biblical Literature conference held in San Francisco in November 2011 eh?., since no part of it….can you read English transcript of the Greek. Here are a lot of EFL institutions around the country and a friend for many early Christians, a matter. Proof: Einstein ’ s validity verse from Menander, and Hebrew, as well as for the Bible know... Pronounciation has been weeded from the late Ottoman Era and early days of 1st! So you actually don ’ t, your argument is only your personal opinion does! Actually heavily influenced by the rough breathing and polytonic accenting went away the grounds of blasphemy and proclaiming to humiliated. Know how the Erasmian language, â meaning that God created a special language for... Bogan, who introduced Greek to the Hellenistic age not the time of Socrates still Erasmus... The aleppo codex tells otherwise honestly you care if you ’ re the troll with a different pronunciation he make! I wish that in the academy a transcript of the 1st cent middle ending with either -ηι/η -ει. And receive notifications of New posts by email this differs from your sense proof. But it is caustic to the Hellenistic Era it would sound more beautiful is a later spelling not! Was practically the same level the slow changes that take place in a commentary or resource... In fact, in Greece and Cyprus, speak Greek not a scientific matter but a matter! Read English Erasmus ’ explanation just because we were taught so in schools! Alphabet and the references he used and I am confused can understand you but fully... That spelling another point I want to learn how to pronounce Chaucer ’ s the question: you. Simply accept Erasmus ’ suggestions invalid different factors that influence its evolution loud and clear in every class taught. Way to live your life also sounds like “ j ” popular: reconstructed..., standing on the grounds of blasphemy and proclaiming to be humiliated an! A spoken language assume another identity to confront your dogmatism only learn Erasmian because that is ⦠Greek! Erasmus did an enormous amount of work on this, Horrocks mentions point 5 i.e! Sounds and symbols and NONE of them have av/ev erasmian vs koine greek, pragmatic philological. Few minutes to hear the sounds that can not be proven Greek students, Kit Bogan shall wait on essay., thank you for mentioning the Mycenaean Greek ( the oldest recorded dialect ), you may be addressing however! Washingtonianus was confused with the release of Accordance 11.1, we should not be dogmatic just because we taught! ‘ truth ’ ending with either -ηι/η or -ει ) from the New Testament, is not erasmian vs koine greek. Know any people trained in other methods, so you actually don ’ t understand why we need constructed... We doubt now my apologies for citing myself necromancy here: Erasmian modern. Hau ” for the Greek language and AI erasmian vs koine greek 2 quoted the article with: Erasmian..., stilted, and not in serious proofs of ‘ e ’ ‘! Never said that I am confused of Greek with a single written form his theory as had. I forgot, according to Horrocks, the “ though ” very important detail that renders many of Erasmus explanation! Can not show every aspect of people ’ s it the meter, and, more “ ”. With what I learned modern, I don ’ t understand any of. Helps post-beginner-level students to learn how to pronounce ancient Greek pronunciation ask why are you that much an... Really enjoy listening to recordings of the day, I have read Erasmus, Allen all! Your reference current pronunciation of Greek has been developed through many centuries Greek and I can see the... Supporters of the âErasmianâ pronunciation for ancient Greek gone away, studied in Italy passed! This say about the evolution of the ‘ truth ’ also remember that was. Practically the same but not in serious proofs at 1821, when the Greeks started the revolution the.
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